来源： 《东风》

以下是Sergei Kirichuk——乌克兰反法西斯左翼运动（Borotba）领袖的采访节选翻译。Borotba的一个成员在敖德萨惨案中惨遭屠杀，并被乌克兰当局列入“乌克兰民族敌人”名单（the list of “enemies of the Ukrainian nation”）。他向我们介绍了乌克兰的现状、乌东南运动的情况、Borotba对于当前局势的分析和评价。（原文请见http://svpressa.ru/society/article/87307/，翻译基于谷歌的俄翻英结果）。 【乌克兰西部对于乌克兰东南部运动的看法】 我认为很多西部的乌克兰人民非常同情乌东南的斗争。即使在西部，人们也对乌克兰临时政府心怀不满，但他们因为目前的恐怖统治气氛而不敢表达他们的看法。与此同时，他们非常关注东南部的局势发展。在东南部，不少乌克兰族的人也参加了反对政府的运动。因此，把乌东南的运动归结为种族、文化或者民族运动是不正确的。   【为什么不跟政府对话？】 与乌克兰临时政府对话根本是不可能的，因为他们对东南部的要求充耳不闻。事实上我们的要求对任何人而言都简单易懂：地区的高度自治，对其社会、语言和文化权利的认可，中止寡头的权力。但是临时政府却将最富有的人任命为东南部的官员。既然没有对话的可能性，那么东南部的人民采取了和欧洲广场运动相同 运动方式——通过占领行政建筑来进行抗议。但是，临时政府采用了特殊武装来攻击他们，东南部的抗议者不得不走入地下，并采取游击战术。   【东南部运动和俄罗斯的关系】 东南部人民主要提出的时社会经济方面的要求，这也是这场运动具有很严肃的反对寡头、反对资本主义的性质。媒体普遍地把所有反对乌克兰临时政府的抗议活动描述成普京间谍的运动。所有人都是普京的间谍：只要你批评基辅当局，那你就是普京的间谍；只要你参与争取社会和经济权利的斗争，你就是普京的间谍；任何一名欧洲议会或乌克兰议会的议员对临时政府提出批评，他就是普京的间谍；更有甚者，如果临时政府手下的新纳粹成员参与有武装的抢劫或者对无辜人民的攻击，他们也被谴责为普京的间谍，因为他们是为俄罗斯的电视台故意做出这些举动的。 顿巴斯的独立，并不是因为普京造成的，而恰恰是乌克兰临时政府的所作所为的直接结果。 如果俄罗斯不是寡头所统治的政权，而是社会主义政权，或者最起码是社会改良主义政权，那很多人会愿意与俄罗斯结成可能的同盟，以服务于大多数人的利益。当然，现在很多乌克兰人对俄罗斯充满期待。但这背后的原因并不是亲俄情绪，而是如何保证乌东南人民的生命、乌东南省份的稳定和和平。   【乌东南运动的参与者】 乌东南运动之前是一场群众运动，但随着乌临时政府开始实施恐怖政策，很多人不敢再走上街头。但只要人们走上街头，你就能看到运动中有两种主要力量。一是希望最大化与俄罗斯的合作和联盟的力量。二是反对资本主义、反对寡头的力量。第二种力量中人们非常不满临时政府任命亿万富翁寡头来管理东南地区，而完全没有为人民的利益实施改革。 但即使在亲俄力量中，也包括了很多各不相同的人。其中有些人认为我们在历史上和文化上与俄罗斯更加亲近。也有些人从更加实际的角度出发，比如希望在主要服务于俄罗斯市场的高科技公司中工作的年轻工人、工程师，他们不希望因为乌克兰西化而不得不走向世界各地去找工作。 运动中的确有俄罗斯民族主义者参与，但他们的数量很小。而这些民族主义者与那些参与欧洲广场运动的民族主义者的差别在于他们根本不能在哈尔科夫或敖德萨实行他们的计划。我们非常尖锐的批评这些俄罗斯民族主义者，他们也批评我们。但在这里，左翼更加有组织性和战斗性。   【关于敖德萨惨案】 我认为敖德萨惨案应成为欧洲和世界政治关注的重要议题。敖德萨惨案是在乌克兰正在发生的一个典型的悲剧。很多欧洲政治家只说这是一个非常复杂的问题，但这是不够的。同样的，仅仅像一些乌克兰媒体那样说双方都有责任，也是不够的。 首先，我们必须认识到冲突并不只局限于两方。首先有新纳粹份子和足球流氓，其次有反对乌克兰临时政府的民众。然后还有警察，由临时政府所控制的警察。因此在这场冲突中，至少有三方参加。 五月二号，很多足球流氓和欧洲广场运动的防御部队到达敖德萨。他们想要举行所谓的乌克兰统一游行（march for unity in Ukraine）。而之前在其他城市，这些游行都导致流血冲突。乌克兰临时政府很有问题：为什么在内战时不停止这些民族主义者的游行？ 超过两千人从不同城市来到敖德萨，其中一些持有武器。这又说明了临时政府的另一个问题：他们为什么会允许这么多武装人员在一个城市中聚集？ 然后这些参与乌克兰统一游行的新纳粹份子和足球流氓遭到了攻击。攻击者戴着面具和红色袖标，他们在警察的管理下开展攻击。再次提问：谁掌控着警察？当然不是反政府运动的积极分子。 在Kulikovo场地里的反对政府阵营里主要是老人、妇女和和平抗议者，他们都没有武器。（受到挑衅转而攻击这些反对政府的民众。）他们不得不前往工会大楼躲避攻击。这些新纳粹份子则在工会大楼放火。很多避难者被活活烧死，很多跳窗而死，还有很多在落地后被新纳粹份子打死。 我们的朋友Andrew Brazhevsky也在工会大楼牺牲。他从三楼窗口跳下来，落地后仍然活着，但是却被纳粹活活打死。那时他的母亲正在旁边。她看到另外一个人从窗口跳下后被纳粹殴打，便扑向他用自己的身体保护他，并最终救下了他的性命。可是她并不知道她的儿子此时正被纳粹殴打，并最终因此失去了性命。 我没有足够的时间来讲述这场悲剧。这是一场发生在乌克兰最大城市之一的有预谋、有计划、有组织的屠杀。   【关于普京在5月7日提出的通过外交途径解决乌克兰问题】 之前的日内瓦协议与此内容相似。但很明显乌克兰临时政府并不打算执行这些协议。而即使政府想执行，它也没有能力。因为，要返回和平，归根结底意味着要卸除纳粹份子的武装。但是乌克兰临时政府并不掌控所有纳粹军事组织，因此并没有能力卸除他们的武装。乌克兰临时政府自己就是这些纳粹份子的人质，并没有能力对他们做些什么。   【对于5月25号总统选举的看法】 我们不承认这一选举，因为目前自封的临时政府完全违反了民主权利和程序。这一政府起草并修改了法例，只要有一个投票站，那选举就是有效的。这样的方式怎么能是民主的？我们不断地呼吁候选人应该退出竞选。但是，乌克兰共产党仍然认为他们应该参与竞选，使他们的候选人当选。但我们不愿参与这场闹剧。   【你们的政治运动中出现了怎样的错误？】 Borotba运动一直以动员工人阶级和青年为己任。之前我们一直认为未来几年我们会在相对民主的环境中，比如能组织和平集会、有印刷自由。但是这一判断时错误的，而我们对于直接的恐怖没有准备。毫无武装准备地面对当前的局面或许是我们的责任。… 最近左翼力量开始遭到公开的镇压。比如我们在哈尔科夫的办公室遭到了不明身份的黑衣人的袭击，我们的红旗、音响、投影仪和宣传材料都遭到了破坏。组织的工作不得不中断。在敖德萨，有消息称计划参加市长竞选的Borotba当地领袖Alexei Albu将遭到逮捕，他不得不因此离开敖德萨。在基辅，乌克兰最著名的左翼记者Andrew Manchuk被搜捕，有些人闯入他家。总体而言，我们目前已经完全处于非法的地位。一些我们的同志不得不暂时离开乌克兰。那些留在乌克兰的同志则生活在非正常的条件下，由于我们被要求停止所有公开活动，我们主要开展地下活动。 现在那些纳粹份子已经列出了一张“乌克兰民族敌人”清单，并将对所有清单上的人实施报复。上面有几乎所有的活动家，当然也有一些意料之外的人。因此，上百人将面对威胁……临时政府的政权岌岌可危，并列了这张名单。所以我认为，在未来几个月中，乌克兰将陷入恐怖气氛之中。 我们必须通过这一切，我们别无选择。 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 谷歌俄转英原文： Terror in Ukraine has become a reality In the "black list" of the Maidan and the Kiev authorities have been hundreds of activists' Borotba " Sergei Kirichuk - leader of the Ukrainian socialist movement "Borotba." For many years he fought against the oligarchic regime of Viktor Yanukovych. But today Kirichuk and his friends are organizing resistance to the new authorities. In response to these hit-wing terror and police repression. Kiev Kirichuk propagandists called one of the leaders of the "separatists", nationalists made ​​his name in the list of "enemies of the Ukrainian nation." "SP" Sergei contacted and asked to talk about the current Ukrainian democracy, revolution, underground and exile. "SP": - Sergey, last winter all the channels showed the world thousands of protests in Kiev. It looked very impressive. Why "Borotba" not now then in the protest movement? - From the beginning we did not have any illusions about the political nature of this movement. Despite the fact that many thousands of people took to the streets, "Borotba" never forgot that even mass demonstrations may be organized under the reactionary flags. Then we explained many, including European comrades, that neo-Nazis are very, very important part of this movement. Many people said it is not a very big problem, because the Nazis did not so much, they are a minority. But it was an active and organized minority. Minority that the whole movement to impose their agenda. And those left who sought to participate in this movement, at once, on the first day, were attacked and attacks on the Maidan. When people of the Trotskyist organization "Left Opposition" came with the social (not socialist and social) requirements, then immediately was an attack on them. They were mixed with dirt, said they were in the Gulag, totalitarianism, etc. Independence, as a movement, has never claimed any social demands. He never set the goal of redistribution of national wealth in favor of the middle class or poor people. Although some of our comrades tried to participate in the Maidan. For example, Levin brothers went to the neighboring Maidan street, Khreschatyk, handing out union leaflets, spoke in favor of the development of the labor movement. No red flags, no socialist agitation. As a result, a broken rib Anatoly Levin, Denis filled with gas. So for us, it was immediately clear that it is for the movement. "SP": - Tell me, what is your native language? You are a native of the eastern or western part of the country? - Many of you know that I came from the western part of the country, my parents Volyn Ukrainian is my native language. And I can say with confidence that many Ukrainians in the west of the country, even sympathize with the struggle of the Southeast. Kiev disgruntled regime very much and in the west, but there reigns a climate of terror that people are simply afraid to express their opinion, are silent. At the same time, they hope to look at what is happening in the South-East, in this fight. And in the South-East Ukrainian-citizens also took part in the protest movement. Reduce it to an ethnic, cultural or national factors completely wrong. "SP": - What do you think about former President Yanukovych? Whether it is your ally? - Everyone knows (including our friends from Europe who visited us and saw our struggle against Yanukovych), we criticized Yanukovych very sharp and always struggled with his regime. But, of course, fought entirely different position than those who voiced Maidan. We played for a socialist twist in Ukraine against the monstrous regime oligarchy, who built Yanukovych. It should also be noted that Yanukovych was very pro-Western politician. He tried to please everyone in the West. His only error with the Western point of view was that he asked for a six-month postponement of the signing of a free trade zone with the EU. And then once it started the protest movement, which is known as the Maidan. "SP": - What is wrong with the current Kiev authorities? Why do not you try to establish a dialogue with her? - The fact is, the self-proclaimed government absolutely unprepared to any dialogue. The only argument that they use - is the power and weapons. It so happened that the movement in the South-East Maidana repeated path from beginning to end. It started first with small rallies, then these meetings have become more widespread. Dialogue with the government if it could not be because the power was completely deaf to the demands of the South-East. And these requirements were simple and understandable to anyone. This high degree of autonomy for the region, the recognition of its social, linguistic, cultural rights. The suspension of the power of the oligarchy. But the Kiev government ostentatiously appointed governors of the richest people in the south-eastern provinces. Then people in the same way as on the Maidan, began to seize administrative buildings to demonstrate their protest. But when special forces thrown against them, they began to go underground, and in this way it began a guerrilla war. "SP": - What should be the reaction of a democratic Europe, civil society, democratic parties on what is happening in Ukraine? - I said two days ago in the Bundestag, that they should put pressure on their governments to reason with Kiev. We must stop this bloody terror, this "anti-terrorist operation." Because they just shoot unarmed people. Our Western colleagues of left-wing parties can not exert pressure on the media, but at least they can inform the public about what is actually happening now in Ukraine. Provide an independent assessment of the events. Require compliance with basic human rights and freedoms in Ukraine. A very simple program. "SP": - As a rule, the Western media described the protests in the South-East of Ukraine, as a movement, inspired and supported by Russia. Is it true? - This frenzied hysteria, of course, is untrue. People here in the Southeast raised for their socio-economic rights. There is a very serious anti-oligarchic, anti-capitalist component of these protests. Any opposition activity, any protests Kiev media describe how the activities of agents of Putin. And Putin's agents, in their opinion, are all. If you criticize the Kiev authorities, you agent Putin. If you participate in the mass rallies for socio-economic rights, you - agent Putin. If a politician in the European Parliament or national parliaments in Europe allows himself some criticism towards the new Kiev government, it immediately announce agent Putin. Moreover, even if some neo-Nazis in Kiev commit armed robbery or assault on innocent people, they also announced Putin agents that create the picture for Russian television. So that there is no bad or uncomfortable for the Kiev government, always to blame "agents of Putin." Because, in their opinion, he did all controls. And in Ukraine, Europe and wherever else. "SP": - Is there funding from Moscow? - No. Movement in the South East by its technical and financial support for equipment and incomparably Maidan. Victoria Nuland said that the U.S. has spent $ 5 billion to promote democracy in Ukraine. And in the East of Ukraine shows that the protest movement is no strong financial support. At least in the cities where we were active - in Kharkiv and Odessa, I have seen no funding from the Russian or the Putin administration. And on the political landscape not seen any people who have helped and financed this movement. "SP": - You are often called separatists or "pro-Russian activists." How do you feel about the idea of ​​joining the south-eastern regions of the country to Russia? - Movement "Borotba" always supported the territorial integrity of Ukraine. But for such territorial integrity, in which would respect the rights of the people of South-East. We are talking about fiscal autonomy, social, cultural. But, unfortunately, the Kiev government is doing everything to divide the country. They always take some scandalous decision, declare any people who do not agree with them, separatists. In our opinion, these separatists is the Kiev government. They launched a struggle against the people. Not recognizing the idea of ​​federalization of the country, the oligarchs, for example, create a private army. Thus, they go to the feudal way, when everyone had overlord own team. They create these formations with opaque funding sources, and without any whatsoever civilian control of these armed groups. Ie oppose federalization, they favor feudalization country. If Russia was not the regime, ruled by oligarchs, if Russia would have been, if not socialist, but at least the social reforms that would be in the interests of broad sections of the people, many in Ukraine would be set to the closest possible alliance with the Russia. However, many citizens of Ukraine now look with hope to Russia. But the question here is not about pro-Russian sentiments, but only on how to save his life, stability, peace in the south-eastern provinces. "SP": - What are you and your comrades think about Russian President Vladimir Putin? Do you think his ally for yourself? What do you think about Russian opposition? - We have always been opponents of Putin. You know that we have a close partnership with the Russian organization of the Left Front, which was strongly opposed to President Putin. And we have always supported our comrades when they were persecuted. We picketed the Russian Embassy, ​​and carry out other actions of solidarity. We kept prisoners Marsh case, help Russian activists in Ukraine escape political repression. No one can suspect us that we are allies of Putin. "SP": - Tell me, looks like a mass protest movement in the SE from the inside? What are its differences and similarities in what the Maidan? - Mass actions were in the past. Because the Kiev government has created an atmosphere of fear and terror that many have simply not addressed to come out. But when people go out, you could see that there were two large components. First - it is the citizens who want maximum cooperation and alliance with Russia. And the second part - it was anti-capitalist, anti-oligarch. People who were outraged that the Kiev government appoints the governors of the south-eastern regions of billionaire oligarchs and totally not going to no reforms carried out in the interests of the people. But even among the so-called pro-Russian component, were very different people. There were those who spoke of our historical and cultural affinities with the people of Russia. But there were others who defended very pragmatic vision. These young workers, engineers who want to work on the high-tech enterprises, which are now focused on the Russian market. They do not want to turn into a "zrobitchan" forced to tour the world in search of work. "SP": - There are many reports that protests in the Southeast participated Russian nationalists. Is this true? - I can say that Russian nationalists did participate in the protests, but they were very little. And the difference between nationalists participation in protests in the Southeast and in the Maidan that they could never impose their agenda nor in Kharkov or Odessa, or even in the Donbas. We sharply criticized Russian nationalists, and they answered us criticism. But here was a situation that left were more organized, more powerful party. "SP": - In early May, the whole world was shocked with a tragedy in Odessa ... - I think that the Odessa massacre - an issue that should be at the center of European and world politics. Odessa is the quintessential tragedy of what is happening in Ukraine. Many European politicians stop at that, they say it, they say, is a very complex and complicated issue. But this is not the answer. Similarly, not enough to say that both sides are to blame, as some assert Ukrainian media. First you need to understand that the conflict does not exhaust the clash between two sides. Look: there were neo-Nazis and football fans, there were people who were protesting against the government in Kiev. And there was the police, which is controlled by the government of Kiev. That is involved in this conflict, at least three sides. May 2 in Odessa began arriving football fans and defense units Maidan. They wanted to get the so-called march for unity in Ukraine, which in other cities ended carnage. This is a very serious matter to the Kiev government: why are they during the civil war did not stop the march of nationalists? In Odessa, were brought more than two thousand people from different cities of Ukraine. Some of them were armed. And it's one more question to the Kiev government why they made such a high concentration of armed men in the city? Then it was an attack that made activists march for unity of Ukraine. Attacked by unknown masked and with ribbons of red tape. They operated under the auspices controlled Kiev police. Accordingly, a question: Who runs the police? Obviously, that is not anti-government movement activists ... In the opposition camp on the Kulikovo field were mainly older people, women, peaceful protesters who have just had no weapons. They took refuge in the House of Unions. Neo-Nazis set fire to the building, many burned alive, many died jumping out of windows, and many have finished, when they were already on the ground. In the House of Trade Unions killed our friend, Andrew Brazhevsky. He jumped from the third floor of a burning building and was still alive, but the Nazis sticks beat him to death. At this time, there was his mother. She saw that one of their guys jumped out of the window, saw him finish off the Nazis. Woman threw herself on him, covered him with his body and saved. She did not know what it was at that moment the Nazis beat her son and that he would die from these beatings. Not enough to state that the tragedy occurred. It was planned, well-thought-out and organized the massacre at the center of one of the largest cities of Ukraine. "SP": - May 7 in Moscow, President Vladimir Putin and Switzerland announced another plan of pacification of the situation in Ukraine. Does it have a future? - Before there were the Geneva agreements with related content. But it is obvious that the Kiev government was not going to carry them out, and if she was going to, then they have absolutely no powers to implement it. After all, when we talk about the need to disarm all these neo-Nazi gangs, we must understand that the Kiev government does not control most of them and has no true parts that could disarm them. Kiev government itself held hostage by these gangs and can not do anything with them. "SP": - What do you think the upcoming presidential elections on May 25? - We do not recognize these elections, because their self-proclaimed government holds that completely violates the democratic rights and procedures. This government has initiated and carried out the amendments to the legislation under which the elections will be considered valid, even if they get only one polling station. Whether such an approach can be considered democratic? We have repeatedly called for candidates to withdraw from the election. Unfortunately, the Communist Party believes that they should participate in it, their candidate elected. But we do not want to participate in this farce. "SP": - What do you think referendums in Donetsk and Lugansk regions? - Initially we treated fairly critical of this referendum is considered that in order to hold them, need some kind of stabilization. But today, in terms of violence and terror, we are sympathetic to the people who carried out and participated in the referendum. Proclaimed republic in the Donbas - is not the result of any actions of Putin, and a direct result of actions of the Kiev government, which in its lies and cynicism exceeds the worst examples of Nazi propaganda. "SP": - What mistakes in the political struggle you make? - Movement "Borotba" which is always focused on the mass mobilization of the working class and youth, believed that in front of us a few years of relative democracy, that we will be in an environment where, anyway, respect the rights of peaceful assembly, freedom of Print. Unfortunately, this calculation was a mistake. We were not ready for direct terror. Perhaps it is our fault that we were in these conditions unarmed. In fact, our organization is now routed across the country. In recent days began open repression against leftist forces. Our office in Kharkov was attacked by unidentified men in black uniforms who carried out all: red flags, sound-amplifying equipment, projector, all our agitation. The organization's work in locked. In Odessa, there is information about the arrest of the local leader of the "Borotba" Alexei Albu, who is a candidate for mayor. He was forced to leave the city. In Kiev apartment MANCHUK Andrew, who is best known leftist journalist in Ukraine, was searched. Some tommy broke into his home. In general, we are now completely illegally. Some of our comrades temporarily left Ukraine. Those that remained, living in an irregular situation, and we were asked to refrain from any public activity and focus on illegal work. I myself am in Athens, where he participated in the conference "The threat of fascism in Europe." I was not planning to leave the Ukraine for a long time. On May 9th, I flew to Berlin to attend a conference in Germany. But they got the information about his possible arrest, and so I decided to stay here for a while. Now the Nazis drew up lists of "enemies of the Ukrainian nation" and going all the people who fall into these lists, subject to reprisals. And there were almost all activists "Borotba" that were somehow overlooked. But there are random people. Ie danger threatens hundreds and hundreds ... Now make your lists and unreliable power, so I think that in the coming months, Ukraine will be the right atmosphere of terror. But we must pass this way. We have no other choice.